Lest We Forget…
November 3, 2009 24 Comments
I am not for this whole idiotic war that the Bush administration concocted.
No.
Not at all.
In fact, I hate war with a passion. Perhaps as much as I hate Bush.
This is also coming from a chick who worked for a military manufacturer of LAVs – for 9 fucking years.
It messed with my head like no tomorrow.
9 FUCKING LONG YEARS!
But I digress.
I also understand and respect the duties that come along with someone who chooses, of his or her own will, to sign up with Armed Forces/Navy/USMC/Air Force/Reserves. I refuse to deny them the respect they deserve.
And I get incredibly infuriated with the idiots who, upon realizing that the army is not a walk in the park or a video game, but real life altering – who have chosen to flee, go MIA, come to Canada and claim refugee status.
Look – I’ve said it before and I will say it again:
You WILLINGLY signed up for the Forces.
You VOLUNTEERED.
You KNOWINGLY went into this knowing you could be put in harms way, including perhaps loosing your own life.
YOU and only YOU made that decision.
There is no conscription. That was abolished many years ago.
So therefore, the decision to join the army – was YOUR choice.
So to come running up to Canada seeking refuge because you don’t want to be thrown in jail for not doing your duty, something that you WILLINGLY, VOLUNTARILY, KNOWINGLY signed up for AND got paid for… is completely, and unequivocally UNACCEPTABLE.
As we approach Remembrance Day (November 11), I can’t help but think of all our men & women who are out there – who fought for my freedom (to choose to not be in the Forces), who fight for the freedom of others (even if it is under false pretense, sending the world into a spiraling recession) – and I want to give them the respect they deserve. To say Thank You.
And I find myself conflicted because these people are a black mark (no pun intended) on what should be a time to remember those that deserve to be honoured. These cowards – because that is what these men are when they refuse to take responsibility for their actions – are hiding in a Canadian church, seeking asylum – refuge because they ‘don’t support the war in Iraq’ – on humanitarian and compassionate grounds. Seriously? These men haul ass to Canada, knock up a Canadian chick – quickly marry or not – all in attempts to ensure they don’t get deported – to face the ramifications of their decisions. But it doesn’t always work. They are being deported. Their refugee status is being rejected. And now once again, they are refusing to be accountable for their actions – and hide in a church.
Look.
The war in Iraq was/is a lie. Bush was a joke. You might not think you HAVE to honour your duties as a soldier first and foremost because Bush isn’t being held accountable for his part in this fiasco.
Just because Bush was/is an ass – doesn’t mean you have too. Doesn’t mean you cannot be accountable for your actions. Its bullshit that you will face the death penalty. The Military doesn’t seek the death penalty. So at worst, you will be dishonourable discharged. Whoop-dee-doo. Worst case scenario – you will face jail time. Small price to pay for changing your mind. Which is your right to do. But it is your duty – your moral responsibility to face the ramifications of making such a decision.
They are a disgrace to our men and women in uniform… the ones who sacrifice their lives to protect us. And our rights. And they deserve our respect. They deserve to be remembered so that we may never forget what they gave up for us. They stood with integrity – perhaps doing things that we don’t ever really truly ever want to know… but they honoured their commitment to their government and state.
We are not only asked to REMEMBER but to also act.
And I think that Canada should honour the deportation ruling against these cowards, and make them face the ramifications of their actions. Which is the honourable thing to do, for all of those brave men and women who did and do exactly that – at such great sacrifice.
[Old Iron] Sooooo…. MY TURN.
Let’s first get the credentials out of the way. Prior military via the USMC (semper fi, brothers in arms) with an honorable discharge, and have also logged more time in the Mid East than most people have that are currently in the military… as a CONTRACTOR! Gasp! Yes, I have actually worked over there, and to be honest actually quite liked it. Yeah, the weather sucks depending where you are at, but all in all the environment is not that bad. All you people that have been to Dubai can completely identify with that, right? I mean seriously, an indoor ski slope that ends at a casino.
Pure awesomeness on a platter.
-Oh, and before I move on, Kuwait has the WORST drivers on this planet. Dear God you literally are taking your life into your own hands if you drive on 5th or 6th ring and you aren’t driving a tank. More on that later.
Now that THAT is out of the way, let me roll out my exquisitely formed opinion on why military deserters that flee to Canada should be gut shanked by a crack whore wielding a knife that was used to perform amputations on lepers and fed feet first to rabid caribou.
First point of note: this idiot is taking “sancutary” in a friggin church. Dude, how do I put this… you have been watching WAAAAY too many episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer; American law enforcement have not been magically transformed into blood-craving creatures of the night, and try as you might to believe that holy ground can stop a bullet…. let me bring you into this great place called reality.
Nope. Bullets are church-proof.
Oh, and you can take off that garlic laurel that you wear everywhere in your “sanctuary”; I heard that the priests are getting pretty fucking annoyed now that your room smells like a pizzeria.
Following that same train of thought: what, are you trying to re-enact the Hunchback of Notre Dame or something? Do you ring their bells for them at mass? Did you in fact fall in love with a gypsy woman who does not reciprocate your obvious doe-eyed affection for her?
Second point of note: I have no idea what the sovereign land laws are up there in the Great White North, but last time I checked the only places that have that distinction are indian reservations and embassies, so I will roll that up into my assumption that churches kinda fall outside of that law. This means that seeking “sanctuary” in a church…. well, you would have had better luck doing that at the South African embassy holding a sign that said “Bring back Apartheid NOW”, chuckle nuts.
Alright. Now that I am over the snarkier aspects of my opinion, allow me to provide a rational retort to this.
You! Yeah you, military police! Fuck extradition laws, get your asses up there and grab this waste of oxygen and slap his ass in the brig!
Last bit of advice; dude, you read the contract when you signed it… right? RIGHT?!?!?
-Moron.
About ~KC~
Old Iron
~KC~
Naked Writing 
-I also think that Bush was awesome. I got to see not one but THREE wars in my lifetime, and actually got the chance to shoot an RPG.
Too cool. Thanks GW.
Sorry, I know this is just tangential to what KC was trying to say, but it made me think of something.
It’s such a strange thing about us. If a space alien was borrowing my spare bedroom for a few weeks trying to find himself a place to live, he’d be asking a question about this and I’d have NO idea how to answer him……..
A President says Saddam Hussein is a dangerous dude and we really, absolutely, positively have to go deal with that asswipe. This is thought of by tens of millions of people as a “lie”; certain other politicians routinely tell us that if we raise the minimum wage it will have no effect on unemployment. Or that the cure for a sour economy is womb-to-tomb healthcare.
In fact, forget all about the space alien. A sixth-grader, some twenty years from now, looking at a roll of butcher paper on his classroom wall etched with numbers that represent years one yard apart…would be able to ask questions we’d find awkward today. “Okay, so you have a cease-fire here in 1991…Saddam violates the no-fly zone here…you have these 17 resolutions Secretary Rice was talking about in here…you leave him in power ALL THIS TIME…it’s a ‘lie’ to suggest this is a bad idea and you shouldn’t keep doing it?”
Really, I don’t blame people for falling for propaganda. But they should recognize it when they see it, I think. We tried the “peace love kumbaya trust you trust you trust you” Jimmy Carter approach with Mr. Hussein. Didn’t work.
“Really, I don’t blame people for falling for propaganda. But they should recognize it when they see it, I think.” …. and yet – Obama was elected BECAUSE of propaganda. Recognize it? Usually happens AFTER the fact – sad but it appears to be the truth.
Look Saddam needed to be stopped. True. I won’t ever deny that. But there are MANY other asswipes in offices around the world that are the same as he was, if not worst. So, come on, seriously? The grease paint that the Bush administration used to make that happen – set in motion a very destructive path that we are now paying a huge price for. How is it possible to find him in the middle of the desert, in a deep well, in a remote village – when they can’t even find the man responsible for the terrorist attacks on NYC?
Look – forget Michael Moore. Its a one sided view on a much bigger picture.
But to say that Bush isn’t to be blamed – doesn’t sit well with me.
We are all idiots for falling for much of the propaganda we are being fed.
I simply despise the lies and manipulations that come from our elected officials. I just don’t buy it… and I won’t. It’s bullshit.
And putting the lives of our service men & women in danger… for what?
Lies. And more lies.
KC
Funny, your post is about cowardly deserters hiding in churches, and the comments go straight to Bush.
Old Iron’s comment is hilarious to me, because I am dead serious when I say that I am not sure if it is sarcasm or not. Three wars and an RPG is like a lifetime of Christmases for some of us ill-adjusted types.
Morgan, as you know, is prone to wander, but is again on the mark here. I sense a bit of my own alien metaphor in there, to boot. Imitation is the sincerest form…
In these deserter types, there is an obvious inability to live up to one’s own chosen responsibilities, which is an absolutely detestable character trait no matter what your station in life. Choosing a church is even weaker than deserting – it’s preying on the compassion of their faith, which is sick.
Karate chops to the lot of ’em!
I knew there was a chance of the whole Bush topic would come about – simply because I did put my own personal opinions about him for the world to comment on… and with Old Iron being a staunt Republican – it would get his goat. And no – Old Iron wasn’t being as sarcastic as you would think… but I’ll let him reply to that one, should he choose too.
I should have ended that first sentence with “instead.” Sounds like I meant to imply some parallel between Bush and the deserters, which I did not. I was just noting that the comments focused on something other than the main point. Blah, blah.
Gotcha Andy. Thanks for bringing it back to its original point!
Well the word “lie” was never sincere in the first place. It was just a device to get people to take up with the anti-war side who otherwise wouldn’t have. Now that it’s served its purpose it’s a little outdated.
Getting back to the subject at hand…yes, hiding in a church is rather stupid and suggests a yawning disconnect with reality brought on by an overly thick diet of television. I’m inclined to bet he had a mommy bringing him vittles and beverages from the kitchen, perhaps a bedpan too like Cartman. Perhaps that’s the reason someone, at some late hour, urged he go sign up even though subsequent events clearly demonstrated he wasn’t of the right caliber.
And ditto to Iron. I wanna fire a RPG. At a really old rusted-out super beatle. Like that scene Bruce Willis did with that huge gun in “The Jackal.”
Ugh Morgan – I will have to respectfully disagree with you in that the word lie was/is not sincere.
They have yet to prove any truth to their claims… that justified their actions.
To use the term – misinformed or even misguided is to sugar coat what is.
As much as I am not for war – I know that on many occasions – it is a necessary evil… especially if it is to secure the freedom of the masses or even the helpless. This feels too much about oil, money, conversion etc… than it is about terrorism etc.
Really? About oil?
How much oil did we get out of that?
It’s about ensuring our access to this oil… not necessarily controlling it. There aren’t any environmentalist putting up road blocks over there … the red tape it takes to gain access to the oil sand and the rich natural deposits that we, on this side of the continent are blessed with.
The issue of oil accessibility in the middle east started long before 9/11.
When American oil companies acquired more than 75% of the output of the oil fields and issues rose up on how to get access to that oil in landlocked locations (thanks to the Taliban). I know this is an oversimplification of the issue – how it goes far beyond Bush, even into Clinton’s presidency. It simply isn’t propaganda.
So to call it a war on terrorism when it really isn’t – is a lie. They just can’t sell the real reason to the public…
Your argument has a problem, and the problem has to do with why it isn’t gaining the widespread acceptance you want it to have. You can try to get Michael Moore out of the whole issue but the problem isn’t with him or his poor hygiene…with him forgotten entirely, the problem remains.
It’s the whole taking-things-on-blind-faith. Yes, oil is a valuable and scarce resource and there are issues with getting to it in the Middle East. How does it logically follow that the case for invading Iraq was based solely on commercial interests? At best, all that you’ve pointed out supports only this: America as a country shared a common enemy with the oil interests that operate within it. The leap between that, and that we were sold a pack of lies, is nothing but a leap of faith.
Precisely the leap of faith you deny to others on the weapons-of-mass-destruction thing, I notice. In fact, the logic is exactly the same as this: We had a great deal of prestige at stake in our desire to beat the Russians to the moon, so the moon landings *had* to have been faked.
Blind faith? I don’t think so – its about following the trail of evidence. There is plenty of evidence to support a pre-meditate plan of attack on Afghanistan long before 9/11. Right wing – left wing – doesn’t matter. The evidence is there. Its not about blind faith. Nor about conspiracy theory.
And to compare a lunar landing with a war is apples & oranges – in fact, its not even on the same level in my mind.
Look – I’m not about blindly following the masses. Your perception of what is and what I perceive differ. I am not going to change your mind, nor will you be able to change mine. What I think we can both agree upon is that regardless of who is to blame, perceived lies or truths – is that we have men & women overseas fighting and they deserve our respect for the sacrifices they make day in and day out… so that WE can sit here and bitch about our opinions and who is right/wrong.
And that is the point that I wanted to make in my blog posting. And that is the point that I am going to stop here with.
I am not going to change your mind, nor will you be able to change mine.
In my case, there’s a perfectly sound reason why you aren’t changing my mind with the argument you’ve stated so far: You’ve put forward a motive, and beyond that you have a conclusion you want to get to. There’s a leap there – you don’t want to call it blind faith, but it’s a leap of something. Because between where you’ve left it, and where you’re taking it, there isn’t anything. Nothing you’ve chosen to state, anyway.
It’s funny in a sad kind of way, isn’t it. We have “Mission Accomplished” events all over the place with our social services provided by our government. Oh here’s a family that fell through the cracks…let’s make another program. Oh dear that program didn’t cover this sad sack over here…let’s make another. And another. And another. Nothing ever re-done or un-done. As a libertarian, I know you can appreciate what’s wrong with that…
And here’s Iraq. I know you don’t like to admit it, but a problem got solved. That’s what happened. Saddam and his murderous raping sons — dead & cold in the ground. When’s the last time our “war on poverty” got results like those? When’s the last time our war on drugs got results like those? Food stamps? Social Security? And yet here…in this ONE case…a goal got met, and now we got this giant towering stigma against ever doing it again. The womb-to-tomb nanny-state stuff that never works — go to town, baby. Shove it into high gear and tear up the track. Kim-Jong Il has a fireworks show the very day Obama’s cutting the defense budget, and nobody blinks twice about it; the dollar’s weakened to the point that the Canadian exchange rate is upside-down, but hey, let’s pass ObamaCare at $1.2 trillion.
So if you’re really done discussing this, I think the lesson you should take away from it is to think twice before arguing these things from the perspective of “George Bush is so evil and dumb I hate him so much.” You seem educated well beyond that kind of reasoning…but honestly, it doesn’t look to me like you can make the connection that it has real consequences, this settling of complex matters by means of social taboo & scolding & don’t-you-dare & google-this. And something tells me you’re making some “bedfellows” of sorts, even if they aren’t actual friends, of whom you wouldn’t approve…and they’re getting a lot more to their liking out of the arrangement, than you are. George Soros, for example, is out there saying the money he’s sunk into the elections lately represents the best investment he’s ever made.
It’s not a casual “I feel like arguing about this oh no now I don’t” kind of issue, KC. It’s pretty serious. Hopefully Andy will be able to help you see this…
Well Morgan… here’s the thing. This is very much a passionate topic for you and my unwillingness to take this topic to task has not impressed you in the least bit. Sorry. But I am not trying to impress you whatsoever. In fact, I am not trying to impress anyone. I am simply stating my personal opinion – one that regardless of what I say or list my reasons why I believe what I do, and provide facts – you will continue to tell me I am wrong. Regardless of whatever facts I put forth. I knew that going into this conversation… and I am not going to try hard or put effort into such a debate.
You don’t want me to make statements like “I hate Bush” or “the war in Iraq is based on a lie” – something that I believe to be true. You would rather me simply accept facts that you have done nothing but shove down my throat as nothing BUT the ‘truth’ … the same story I heard from many a Conservative American.
I don’t disagree – Saddam & his sons needed to be dealt with. A long time ago. So does Kim Jong… and lets add a few more to that list – Moammar Gadhafi and Robert Mugabe, while paying attention to the likes of Valdamir Putin and his radical communist ideas or any dictators for that matter who continuously commit crimes against humanity. I mean – broaden it past just the obvious really – because if you are going to pass judgment against the likes of Saddam & his sons and take a country to war over that – then why not do it to all others? Why Saddam and not the others? What is it that he has that made it worthy to take him to war that the others don’t?
My disdain for Bush is far more reaching than his puppetry of the war… the man is a political boob. Is Obama any better? Oh hell no. I am not a fan of Obama, nor a supporter of his or his socialist policies. He speaks real pretty but that’s about it. But what I don’t appreciate is your talking down to me for an opinion that is truly my own – because you don’t understand nor care for it… nor are willing to be open to hearing it. Which is why I haven’t bothered to justify any of my statements. Perhaps it is your approach – perhaps it is because we don’t know each other – perhaps there is another reason. And yes. I will walk away from justifying myself… fully understanding the ramifications to making such a statement. Consequences? Oh I know them well. And if that apparently makes me a bedfellow to someone that I might not even like or befriend – then I will deal with it at that time.
I stand behind MY statements. I stand behind MY opinions. I stand behind MY reasons. And I stand behind the need to not having to justify them to you. They are my own. Not anyone else’s. And since this topic is like beating a dead horse… I don’t really care to kick the dead animal any further.
Thanks for trying. I am sure we will have differing opinions on many a subject along the way… and I really don’t want this to deter you from visiting. And I am sure my counter part Old Iron will share your opinion on many a subject. I just don’t. Not on this one.
America could have gone to war in the Middle East any time it wanted to. That our government respected the will of its own people enough to not say “we want oil and we’re going to war whether you like it or not” is a compliment to our system and our nation. 9/11 and terrorism and WMD were not the easy excuse that Washington was waiting for in order to hoodwink the public into rallying for the cause. They were the last damned straw. We weren’t going to war over oil or anything else, because that wasn’t a good enough reason to head down that road all on its own. But flaunt enough UN resolutions, and then attack us? Add that to the wretched humanitarian record of the region and also the oil situation, and we became Popeye: “It’s all we can stands and we can’t stands no more.”
You know what Andy – of all the ‘come backs’ I’ve heard in all the debates ever held or read about this topic – this is perhaps one argument that I CAN/will actually consider and seriously take under advisement. So for that, I will say Thank You. It may not 100% change my opinion but it does however put enough of a twist on it that I can honestly say… hmmmm.
Ah, a refreshing bonus! Here I was worried that it sounded a bit like idealist drivel, and would just be ignored.
Haha… I’m a Libertarian Andy – not a Liberal.
I don’t ignore reason. At least one that isn’t overly lopsided.
(No disrespect to those who’s ideals on this subject are… well, one sided)
Just keep in mind KC, just because I completely disrespect the argument doesn’t mean I disrespect the person arguing. You’ve got a lot on the ball, I know that. But you’re just the latest in a long line of folks who are saying this stuff to — let’s just cut through it — get back some agreement. It’s a call of “who’s with me?” I believe that’s the only reason it’s gotten as far as it has. I hate Bush; who’s with me?
Here I am disagreeing, and man-o-man it’s just SO tiresome. I’m wearing you out! Well…if ever you catch me asking you for a date, go ahead and use that tactic. It’s appropriate there.
But I suspect we agree on a lot more than what we disagree on. Like the fact that we aren’t going to agree on Iraq. Fair enough. I look forward to your comments on other subjects. Overall, I’m confident, you do think for yourself. Yes, you’re right you have nothing to prove to me.
“Just keep in mind KC, just because I completely disrespect the argument doesn’t mean I disrespect the person arguing.” Ditto Morgan… ditto! LOL… and I think as adults we can come to certain conclusions and agree to disagree! And it’s not YOU that is tiresome… is the same ol same ol argument that I hear from every Conservative voice out there, using the same tactic of shoving it down my throat without even listening or wanting to hear, what probably is to their ears, the same ol same ol argument in return. Thus kicking a dead horse… over and over again. THAT is the frustrating part. Not you… and you wearing me out… hehe – time will tell.
I leave you kids to your own devices for 2 DAYS and this is what I get?!?!?
-Excellent.
Oh, and Morgan, It really was a level of epic male fulfillment that I think I will never reach again to be able to fire one of those old russian made RPGs at a sand berm, if anything just to see what kind of large furrow I could make in the earth with a rocket propelled shaped charge.
I think I heard the planet scream when that round impacted… and it was good.
Want.
It’s going on my Christmas list.
Oh yes, Old Iron, me wants one, too. I’ve fired me some good old American AT-4’s, but the design is so much more efficient that they’re almost no fun.
Hey Morgan, will the RPG fit in the Bugatti?
KC – not to drag this back out, but one of the things to be careful of is rolling out the cliches around the better thinkers out there. When you start using bumper sticker logic like “Bush Lied,” etc, it really gets the hackles up of people who have earnestly taken their investigations of the matter several steps deeper than that. People who have not, expect it to be an argument ender instead of a discussion starter, which is never a good way to begin.
I can tell you have more in the tank than that, and so can Morgan, otherwise he would not have gotten into it with you the way he did.